Phileas #12 – Do YOU have the pig flu?
April 26, 2009 by Patrick
Filed under - The Phileas Club, .Episodes
Roger from East Meets West (and from San Francisco) and Mohammed “the kid” from Qatar join me in this episode as we wait for that guy from Saudi Arabia to remember he’s due for our panel. Yes, Turki forgot about us a second time (and he’ll never hear the end of it). He does end up joining us though, and we tackle a number of issues, some very serious and some really not… Petty much as usual.
Some of the topics we talk about include: police violence at the G20, Talibans resurgence, Ahmadinejad at the Durban II conference, Obama and south America and the EU elections.
Enjoy!
Listen to the show:
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Patrick,
Craigslist killer…… Just to clear the air, the accused was allegedly setting up appointments with providers (prostitutes) via the erotic services section on craigslist. He would (allegedly) show up at the designated time and place and than proceed to rob the women. This happens quit a bit actually to working girls who use craigslist to advertise their services. They make attractive targets because they will often not go to the police because they themselves are prostitutes. More on this will come out into the light as time goes by, I predict. Turki can be abrasive sometimes but I think I agree with him about the racism conference that was held. The President of Iran (I am not even going to try to spell his name) does say things that are inappropriate, inflammatory, and down right crazy. But, it’s even crazier that a person can’t construct a well thought out, and intelligent opinion criticizing the formation of Israel without being called antisemitic (in a country that claims to give us free speech). Did the Jewish population suffer unimaginably during WWII? YES!!!!!!! Was an entire population of people displaced in order to create the state of Israel? YES!!!!!!!! It needs to be looked at by more people in the west this way. Palestinian people have a right to have their grievances heard.
The whole torture thing is a joke in this country (USA). The CIA has been torturing people since the Vietnam War at least and will continue this practice into the future. All the Obama administration did was create a way to deny and wash their hands of this if it comes up in the future. The CIA does their own thing and the executive branch of our government just doesn’t want to know about it.
There is major concern here since the next G20 meeting is in New York city. I don’t think it will be as bad here as some of the media think, unless unemployment climbs to 10% and the country falls out of love with the president than there will be plenty of pissed off people out there. Great show keep up the great work!
Thanks for clearing all that up Joe. So the Craig’s List killer didn’t really kill anyone? He just robbed them?
And I agree with you about people voicing their opinions : I certainly don’t agree with everything Turki says, but I do want descending voices in the show. As long as we’re all being respectful, I do believe that it is important to hear what the other side has to say. If we were all agreeing with each other all the time it would be a pretty dull conversation…
Wait,
Actually he did kill (allegedly) the girl from the site. But he is suspected in several other robberies in the general area. This particular instance seems to have gone awry. Sorry if I caused any confusion……
Patrick,
Great topic for next show.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090430/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_child_marriage
Yes, it’s definitely an example of an enlightened, tolerant religion which respects the rights of women and, especially, eight year old little girls.
Don’t be to quick to generalize. I think you could find instances of things just as intolerable in any religion.
I don’t even think Mormons marry them off that young. The way I look at it, this child was sold into slavery. Marriage is a contract, so how can a minor, especially an 8 year old child, have the capacity to enter into that contract? To make it worse, it appears as if the child’s mother did what she could to help her daughter, but was told that the child could come back to court to challenge the marriage “after she reached puberty”. No, I’m sorry, but there are certain practices to which moral and social relativism do not apply. And this is one of them. Children are the most vulnerable people in any society and any law, whether it is claimed to come from the almighty himself, which exploits that vulnerability is unjust, wicked, and a direct representation of that society and its backwardness.
Whoa guy,
Not everyone from Saudi Arabia is backward. I’m sure there are folks in Saudi and the Middle East that find this story as crazy as we do. Whenever something controversial comes up on the show regarding the middle east Patrick will ask Turki and Mohammad what the general opinion of their regions are and they always say, “It depends on who you ask.” There are people in Saudi who think that marrying off an 8 year old girl is fine, but I’m sure there are a lot of people in Saudi who think it is just as crazy as you do. There are important social conditions to consider with regard to how these folks arrive at their own conclusions, education, environment, and even exposure to other cultures plays a role.
I said no where that all Saudis are like this. How any part of a society can condone this type of practice is beyond me–the fact that it is permitted by law troubles me deeply. These aren’t people living in a desert compound remote from the rest of society, like you might expect from scofflaws here in the United States who practice polygamy.
There are no “social conditions” which would can support this type of practice. Like I said, at some point, moral and social relativism are exceeded and basic human rights must be respected–this is not only place in the world where children are exploited. There are children forced into military service, prostitution, forced labor, etc., in many corners of the world. I would condemn that just as harshly as I condemn this practice.
You didn’t talk about “all Saudis”, but you did ironically declare: “wow, great religion you’ve got there”. Which equates to saying “hey, look at this case where priests abused young boys! Man, catholics is really a religion of amoral SOBs…”
I agree that cultural relativism can be a very dangerous thing, and I am very outspoken about. But what you’re doing is generalization, which is equally bad.
To make things clear: this is an obvious example of unacceptable behavior and it should be condemned in the strongest terms, with no attempt to justify it. But I believe that throwing in a blanket statement about Islam because of this incident (of which there have been several, admittedly), is not the right way to go about it. At all.
I don’t know, Patrick. I am criticizing all of Islam to the extent that I have not seen a condemnation from anyone in the Islamic world on this topic. No one has come out and said, “No, this is wrong. This is not Islam.” As far as I know, and I would be happy to be corrected, no one from the Saudi government has said this is wrong either–because it is LAWFUL and LEGAL in that country.
At least, finally, the Catholic church came forward and lifted the veil about sexual abuse, settled with the victims and condemned the actions of the priests who committed the abuse.
This is a prime example of the huge chasm in cultural and societal values between the Islamic world and the West. In America, undoubtedly, there are girls who are finding themselves in similar situation in religious cults, be they the David Koresh types, fundamental mormon polygamy, etc. The difference between here and Saudi Arabia is that it is ILLEGAL to engage in such behavior and there are CONSEQUENCES for violating the law. Where I live in New Mexico, there was recently a leader of a radical christian sect who was seducing teenage girls. You know where he is now? In prison. In Saudi Arabia, had he been a Muslim male, apparently all he would’ve had to go through was a divorce proceeding.
All this is permitted in Saudi Arabia by Sharia, the Islamic law. If this is the case, then this type of Islam is wrong, unjust, and uncivilized. We need the good Muslims of the world to rise up and end this type of behavior and bring Islam into the 21st Century. Let it really be the religion of peace, tolerance and goodwill as it claims to be, as I see many good Muslims actually practicing instead of the cult of death and reactionary thinking that the fundamentalists have turned it into. When I see that happening, my criticism of the Islamic religion as a whole will cease.
First of all, I take issue with the categorization of “good” and “bad” muslims. This kind of Manichean way of thinking is comfortable I’m sure, but things are often more in the gray area.
You can’t ask an entire civilization to conform to your views in a day just because you “know” they are wrong. They are moving in the right direction, but it won’t happen in a day. If you’ve listened to any show we’ve done, you’ve been hearing about how difficult it is to change things, everywhere. I have a certain number of issues with the way some things are handled in the US even. Thinking they are unacceptable and judging the whole population for them won’t be of any use to anyone though.
Second, the condemnation of the sexual abuses by the Catholic church only officially came in recent years. Before that, they would just move the offending priests around and pretend like it didn’t happen. Certainly you didn’t condemn the whole church and all religious people in the 70s or 80s for it.
And third… please don’t use caps like this. The only effect is that we get the impression you’re screaming to make your point, which really really doesn’t help. I’m not being snotty, it’s just that you’re being very judgmental to begin with, and yelling doesn’t enforce your judgment, it just devalues your argument.
Ok, one last thing: if you are so keen on condemning and putting pressure on Saudi Arabia for those unspeakable actions, then I can actually commend you for it. If you put your money where your mouth is. Here’s a suggestion that might actually mean something: tomorrow, ride your bike to work instead of driving there. Not that easy, right? Yeah, as I said: shades of gray…
Patrick,
Yes, it is judgmental. But, I believe it is correct. In my mind, I cannot justify accepting the forced marriage of an eight year old girl to any person, let alone a man old enough to be her grandfather. It is wrong no matter one looks at it (unless, apparently, you are a Muslim who happens to believe that the Koran permits this type of practice). I am not going to attempt to understand the motivation or rationale for it because it is wrong on so many levels and is contrary to basic human decency and basic human rights. If the world is going to get along, there has to be some kind of standard of decency which transcends cultural, religious, societal and legal boundaries.
Yes, the Catholic church was slow to change. But it did change. It took the United States eighty years to bring an end to slavery and another hundred years to bring about the civil rights movement of the 1960’s. Christianity had its reformation. Islam, in my opinion, is ripe for one as well.
Wow you’re disingenuous… Of course no one is saying it’s ok for an eight year old girl to be married and abused like that! We all agree it is unacceptable, and there are no conditions or explanations that make it ok.
What we’re saying is that you shouldn’t define and judge a whole religion and over one billion people by these unacceptable incidents.
It’s also very cute how you dismiss the sexual abuse argument in Christianity by saying “yeah well, we ended up changing, so that’s ok”.
First of all, it took a long time for that change to happen. What’s your reference point? Modern times? World War II? The beginning of the religion? By my calculations, it took them about 2000 years to get there, so Islam still has 700 years left to “change”. Ridiculous? Yes it is. You can’t just say “oh well we had it for a long time but we changed so it’s ok, but for those guys it’s not and they have to change RIGHT NOW”. It just doesn’t work that way, no matter how unacceptable these things are. Real change takes time, if you try to force it, it won’t stick.
And second, the point isn’t even that the church did change, the point is that when the sexual abuse was still happening, you probably wouldn’t have condemned and judged the whole western world for it. Which is what you’re doing with Islam today.
Let me illustrate that further: if your parents are Christians (I’m not assuming they are), would you have had the same feelings towards them in the 70s that you have towards Muslims today?
I’m just trying to point out, again, that things aren’t as simple as you make them out to be.
Like I said, Patrick, let me see some Muslims come out and condemn this type of behavior. I have yet to see any type of Muslim organization or government condemn it. Unfortunately, there has been no impetus for change in the Islamic world. Actually, I can point to an impetus for change–a reactionary impetus for change. The Iranian revolution in the late 70’s brought about a global fundamental Islamic movement which has been a disaster for the world. Now there are Muslim fanatics now in all corners of the globe. Beirut 1983 (didn’t they take out the French embassy along with the U.S. Marine Barracks?). The funding and growth of Hezbollah and Hamas. Al Qaeda’s rise in the 1990’s. The ascent of the Taliban in Pakistan and its takeover in Afghanistan. The African Embassy Bombings. The USS Cole. And, finally, 9/11, and then the Madrid and London bombings.
I have seen change and rejection of these types of values in the Muslim world. In Iraq, the Sunnis eventually had enough of the Al Qaeda jihadis and rose up against their brand of Islamic fundamentalist rule. I want to see Islam change. There are a number of Muslims that live in my community–they go to school, own businesses, raise families. They are good people and they are a benefit to my community and to my country.
I am of the opinion that religious fundamentalism–Christian, Muslim, Zionist, or otherwise–is generally a bad thing because ultimately fundamentalists come to the position that their way is the only way.
As you can probably tell from my last name, I am of Irish descent (also part Hungarian and Lithuanian–quite a combo, eh?). I grew up Irish-Catholic, went to Catholic school for part of my elementary education. I haven’t been in the confession booth in nearly 20 years and haven’t been to mass in about 4 years. I am not particularly religious one way or the other.
I think you have to give institutions and individuals credit when they change and right past wrongs. I can still condemn the sexual abuse that occurred in the Catholic church (and we all know it doesn’t only happen in Catholicism!) and also applaud the church for its changes.
Change can happen. Unfortunately, I don’t see a peaceful solution for the Islamic fundamentalist problem. Pakistan is moving towards disintegration or, at the very least, capitulation to Islamic fundamentalism (see, Musharraf wasn’t that bad–the devil you know is better than the one you don’t). It makes me long for the days that the Soviets pointed thousands of missiles at us (well, I guess they still do). The world, ironically, was a much more safer place then than it is now.
One point you make is that extremism is bad and that I think we all agree on. In the article there are several people mentioned by name who condemned this publicly (I can only assume that they are Muslim). Also, being able to petition a court to hear this case as an attorney in Saudi is progress in itself (probably not possible 20 years ago).
My understanding is that there was a petition for divorce filed because there was a settlement agreement between the husband and eight year old wife, or at least her family. Otherwise, she was going to have to wait until puberty to file a petition on her own.
Any law that permits this to take place in the first place is unjust and contrary to all civilized societies. The whole muslim world should be condemning this, right? If we all agree that this is wrong, then isn’t it wrong that they’re are not condemning it and seeking to bring about change?
I just read on Yahoo news that the Saudi Justice Minister said the kingdom is contemplating a marriage ban for those under the age of eighteen. This is good news.
Great news. Now, if we can get them to embrace the deliciousness that is known as bacon………. Just kidding.
This is Mo from the website. I would just like to apologize for the bad quality of my comp I’ve been having problems with my laptop.
Anyways here is an update of the rebellious laptop. RIP May 25, 2009 Macbook Pro.