Phileas #17 – Reasonable People?
September 27, 2009 by Patrick
Filed under - The Phileas Club, .Episodes, Featured
On this episode, your hosts:
- Patrick Beja from France (notpatrick on Twitter)
- Turki from Saudi Arabia (saudi on Twitter)
- Jen from the US
- Kerwin from the UK
Talk about:
- Swine Flu
- 9/11 and the Afghan War
- The G20 in Pittsburg
- Carbon Taxes
- Saudi Universities and Terrorists
- Noynoy Aquino
- The 9/12 March
And more…
Listen to the show:
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Another great show, but, I find myself sitting somewhere between Patrick and Turki much to often for my admittedly libertaian taste. I’m thinking perhaps finding an eloquent non-wingnut consevative voice from the center-right would be a nice foil for the the usual center-left guests from the United States. One of the biggest problems I see happening these days is the inability to both find facts and to believe facts, despite the incredible availability of information in the 21st century (9-12 March crowd numbers is a great example.). When the two sides of the argument can’t even agree on the facts, I don’t think a rational conversation is even possible.
Great show again guys.
None of you seemed to pick up on a comment Turki made which nearly made me fall off my seat laughing – albeit nervously. Im wondering if you guys missed it or if the stunned silence afterwards was a prelude to Patrick trying to change the subject! Apologies if I misquote but it was regarding the ass-bomb news story and turki’s summary of the incident was something like:
“Ok terrorism is one thing, but terrorism after being offered sanctuary is crossing the line”
Oh goodness mate. Im pretty sure you didnt mean it like that but boy that could be taken out of context in the wrong ears.
Keep up the good work guys!
(ps- Patrick, when are we going to see atheism for dummies?
)
I think you have to understand it in the right context: declaring war on your enemy is one thing, but pretending to surrender to get closer and kill them is even more vile. There is a tendency to think that the word “terrorism” is the incarnation of evil, and while it is a very very very bad thing, I don’t think we should demonise *anything*, terrorists included.
Look at it like this: a terrorist is horrible, but strapping a bomb to a seven year old kid is even worst. Pretending to surrender and blowing yourself up is somewhere between the two.
The deeper attack on our moral is this: if you do this systematically, you change the dynamic of the fight so that your enemy can never trust anyone from your side again, even if they genuinely repent. You go beyond an attack on them and deconstruct the social fabric that allows us to live in a civilized world. I guess if terrorism is about fear, that is a supplemental attack on trust.
Imagine that, in a war, one side said to their enemies “if you surrender, you’ll be prisoners of war and will be treated as such”. They surrender, and the winners disarm them and shoot them anyway. Doesn’t that idea fill you with a sense of dread, even more that war itself? (which is pretty horrible to begin with anyway)
How amazing is it that even in the context of war or terrorism, the simple act of lying makes it even worst?…
Anyway, just my thoughts on it.
PS: Atheism for dummies? I’ve thought about it more than once, and I think it will definitely happen at one point. When? God only knows…
I get your point, there are levels of what one would call moral cowardice. I just think that when you put it in the context of terrorism, when more often than not the ultimate goal is to kill for a ’cause’, the lines that are drawn on the moral scale become largely irrelevant. I guess in a way this justifies the predominantly western viewpoint of not negotiating with terrorists. From what you are saying, you could put forward the suggestion that by inviting asylum to this guy, he was in effect giving future terrorists a get-out clause for causing more harm… at least in their own minds.
In many ways it is logical to expect that people who resort to terrorist agendas for their own means are either not capable of rational political strategy or are not interested. Terrorism to me is about self-gratification, no matter how well it is dressed up as a means to a justified end. How can you place trust in someone who’s motives are ultimately selfish? Dont get me wrong, I don’t believe for a minute that the prince deserves to be killed simply because he invited a terrorist to stand in front of him…. but somewhere along the lines logic and rationality failed both him and his advisors.
By the way, did you see that richard dawkins has a new book out?
Well… I don’t like to think people are beyond redemption. If you think of the way that ANY terrorist conflict has been resolved, it’s been by “putting the past behind us” and coming together, most likely by welcoming the extremists into the fold of the people they were fighting against. The IRA comes to mind, but it’s certainly not the only example.
I don’t think we’d ever be willing to forgive people like Ben Laden or top ranking Al Qaeda members (although Arafat and Kadafi are examples of the contrary), but saying that you will never allow anyone who was enrolled in a terrorist group to come clean and atone for his or her actions is basically the equivalent of saying “the only way to end this is to kill all of you”. I don’t think that works, or even that it is worthy of our civilized culture.
Besides, there’s no other way to truly win against extremism: if they realize that they were wrong and want to come to our values, then we should let them (again, to an extent).
I appreciate your argument even I dont fully agree with it
Don’t get me wrong, I hope that things could work out along those lines. Its just to me it seems like a job that is insurmountable, given how easy it is in modern society to preach/spread/influence hatred… the world is smaller and more accessible than it has ever been. But then, arguably that should work in a positive way as well.
But hey… pessimism doesnt get us very far in life so I think I will go have a coke and a smile…
Take it easy mate.
Oh the irony…after talking about it on the podcast, I’ve managed to come down with swine flu this week!
It’s not a big deal from my end, but the school I’m teaching at shut down for the week. (granted, when I say school, I mean one class consisting of 5 special needs kids, but there you go)
I cant believe that! Get better soon!!
NoyNoy aquino will be our symbol for our hope that the Philippines will someday be a better country.,”: